Lit Gal ([info]lit_gal) wrote in [info]shared_wisdom,

Kinky writing

Kink. That's what I was asked to write about. I've stared at this screen, written, deleted, rewritten, and redeleted so often that I don't know if this makes sense, but I've tried to give a few of my thoughts on writing the non-vanilla sex scenes. As hard as this was, don't ever expect meta from me again. Ever. Okay, before we get started, I do want to point out one thing: YMMV! Your Milage May Vary!! Everyone reacts differently to things. For some, figging is deeply painful. For others, it's a very controllable heat that has very little to do with pain. So, for the love of god, don't take anything here as gospel.

My kinky rule #1:
The kink must match the emotional truth of the character.


Sexuality is a reflection of a person. Whether a person is gay, straight, or bi, vanilla or kinky, dominant or submissive, that drive is a part of a larger personality. When the kink doesn't "match" the personality, the sex scenes feel forced and (no pun intended) masturbatory. In Toys, Xander is emotionally damaged.
"Part of him wanted to just break into the open sobbing that would bring Spike to his side, petting and soothing him, but Xander couldn't let go. He couldn't allow himself to give in to that need, not with Spike, not until the pain wiped out all the other fears and angers and frustrations and hatred."

He doesn't actually want pain, but the pain is the only thing that allows him to openly show the deeper hurts—the fear and the isolation—that he's living with as he watches his friends grow apart and is left the loser going from one pathetic job to another. Xander in canon does hide his feelings, so taking this habit of hiding himself and applying it to his sexuality leaves him very open to masochistic and submissive tendencies.

And for Spike in that story, he's been chipped so that he can't be the vicious vampire he wants to be. This means that he needs to feel all-powerful and he needs to cause some pain because that's what's been taken from him. But in canon, Spike is also a caretaker, fussing over Dru (and later Buffy). So, once Xander breaks, then Spike gets to indulge that side of his personality.

The only other story I have with this much kink is The Witness/The Observer. The sub in that, Blair, is an intelligent man who was raised to meditate and express his feelings. If I put that same masochistic streak in Blair, it wouldn't be Blair anymore. Instead, when describing his need to submit, he tells a very skeptical Jim that he does it for the pure enjoyment. In this story, Blair is into puppy play… getting locked into puppy bondage so that he's crawling around on the ground for the day. When Jim points out that this is humiliating, Blair laughs and says,
"Degrading? Oh man, it's really something to just forget all the worries about school and money and which woman I've pissed off this week and just play. I get to lay by the fire and eat treats and annoy Mr. Espinoza until he puts me on the leash just to keep me from stealing his slippers. Man, don't knock it until you've tried it."

Xander is not self aware enough to just feel (and certainly not to feel and admit) a preference for this sort of sexual play. So, does that mean that certain characters are 'locked out' of particular kinks? Hell no. I could make Blair masochistic. I just couldn't make him masochistic for the same reason Xander is. I might create a scenario where Blair, who is short and sometimes gets razzed for not being very manly, might find pain empowering because he's proving that he can take it. He really might enjoy the crack of the cane and the look of admiration from a partner who watched Blair endure without more than a whimper. I could make Blair into a sadistic top, but even as he caused pain, he would be focused on providing his sub whatever his sub needed because Blair does care about others. He would never revel in causing pain like Spike does.

I guess, the short version is, figure out what makes your characters tick and then transfer that into their sexual practices. What do they want/desire/need? What do they fear/loathe? What motivates them? Money? Honor? Reputation? Make your sexuality match that basic characterization.


Kinky corollary #1A
Not all kink is sexual.


The kink must match the emotional truth of a character, even when that emotional truth isn't sexual. I know, it sounds like kink and sex are the same thing, but often times they aren't. In The Witness, Blair performs as a sub for many men, but it's about money and more importantly, having a chance to turn off that big brain of his and relax. Yep, dressing up like a puppy and getting chained is his form of meditation.

In Thoughts Colored Ugly, Jayne—the big bruiser of a mercenary—has to face the fact that the woman he tried to betray, River, has finally recovered enough of her sanity to consciously realize what he did. She's not particularly angry because she reads minds and understands that he was motivated by fear and by a desire to protect the others on the ship. She also knows that he can't forgive himself. He thinks what he did was unforgivable. So, when she makes him lean against a piece of equipment while she takes a whip to him, when she continues until he's bleeding and he finally allows himself to sink into subspace, it has nothing to do with sex. It's about forgiveness.

For Jim in Guidelines, he has to tie Blair up before having sex. It's not a sexual kink at all. Jim doesn't want to do it and feels deeply guilty about it. But he's a Sentinel with highly developed and vulnerable senses, and after nearly being raped by a man who manipulated his senses, Jim has trouble trusting. It's not even that he doesn't trust Blair; it's that he has flashbacks.

So kinkiness is not always sexual.  Sometimes it fills an emotional need/hole that nothing else can quite touch.



My kinky rule #2:
B is not D is not S is not M.


A character can be into bondage without being into getting dominated. Blair in The Witness adores bondage. When Jim tries to tell him what to do at work (thinking to 'take care of' Blair), Blair rips him a new asshole. Blair has drawn his line, and he is not about to be dominated.

In Beautiful Broken, Xander enjoys bondage because it gives him a feeling of safety knowing that Spike is the only holding the key. After being 'broken' by slavers, he is totally submissive. He enjoys some light pain and can endure very large amounts. However, when Spike hunts down one of the demons who enslaved Xander and tortures him, Xander draws his line. Xander kills the demon and puts him out of his misery when Spike wanted to keep going all night, pulling off one scale at a time. Xander cannot tolerate being sadistic at all, not even against someone who hurt him.

In Learning Curve, Xander loves submitting and knowing that someone else is there to control him if he lets his new-found powers get out of control, but the thought of pain makes his balls crawl back up into his body.

A character can like one part of kink while categorically rejecting others. So, decide what your characters like, what they don't like, what their hard limits are and where they're willing to explore.

My kinky rule #3:
Fantasy or reality—just know what you're writing.


Fantasy kink is fine. In fantasy kink, the human body can take anything, enjoy anything, and bounce right back after an hour-long session. If you have a fantastic setting or a PWP, I think some readers even expect fantasy kink. Toys is more on the fantasy side, and that started as a PWP, so I had no guilt about putting Xander through more than the human body could realistically endure. Certainly, you can always label your piece fantasy and get away with anything. A quick: "This is pure fantasy and does not reflect realistic sexual practices" will warn anyone to not nitpick your sex scenes.

Realistic kink works better in a realistic story. Most of my stories are written around actual *gasp* plot. I try to have my kink be realistic because when the realism of a crime case or an adventure is put up against unrealistic kink, one or the other seems wildly out of place. So, in Recovery Epic, Blair and Jim are trying out the gay thing. Their first time in bed consists of some 'ow's and Jim refusing to do the deed because he can smell blood. A fantasy first time in the middle of them realistically trying to find their way thought a relationship would have absolutely undermined the message of the story.


Kinky corollary #3A
If you're writing reality, be realistic.


This is the one thing that does bug me—fantasy disguised as realism. If your story is realistic and most of your sex is realistic, and then you have your sub endure some horribly dangerous/painful act with no repercussions, that's the one place that I'm guaranteed to hit the back button. I've seen people write sex scenes that make me cringe because they're written in realistic style with obvious fantastic elements because the realistic outcome would be a trip to the hospital. Things I've read that made me go googly eyed…

  • Hanging someone by their arms for hours. Hanging causes compression on the lungs, which causes swelling around the lungs, which causes more compression, which causes suffocation.
  • Hanging someone upside down for hours. Blood goes to head, heart can't pump fast enough to get it back out, massive headache, unconsciousness, burst blood vessel, death.
  • Restraining a person with their limbs taut for hours. Limbs cramp, muscles can't contract, limbs cramp more, circulation goes wonky, excruciating pain.

My kinky rule #4:
Less is more.


Some of the scenes that people will tell me are my sexiest, are scenes with no sex. In Second Verse, Xander has gotten a job at a gay bar. Three men circle him, slipping dollars into his waistband and generally harassing him with gentle touches and innuendo. Spike shows up. I can't tell you how often people have told me how sexy that scene is. Xander is wide-eyed and a little lost at being able to inspire lust. The men are desperate to make Xander as horny as they are. Spike is cool and deliberate, and under that, just as horny as the three men. And Xander is clueless. There's no sex, but the underlying sexual tension and confusion reads as sexy.

The Witness actually won the Light My Fire Awards (the one and only awards site for The Sentinel) for Best Multipartner/Kink. There are no multipartners. There is no sex! None. Zero. Zip. No one comes in that entire story. There is teasing and groaning and desire and long looks and the occasional questioning of sexual self-identity, but no sex.

Don't think that you can make your story sexy by rushing to the sex. Sex is eating the chocolate bar. Sexy is the anticipation of eating that chocolate bar. Let the audience anticipate.


My kinky rule #5:
Be creative in finding new kinks that do it for you.


If your sex scenes are always the dom grabbing some cuffs and chaining your sub up before plowing into him, that's going to get boring. Kink is the spicy, exotic food counterpart to vanilla sex. But if you have the same spicy, exotic food every day, the spice becomes vanillaish. So, explore. I think people interpret my work as spectacularly kinky (even though I have far more plot than porn in my work) because of the variety of kinks I play with. So, try out something new and different.

Anonymous sex/masks/hidden identity
Auctions (charity or actual slavery)
Begging
Biological imperative (pon farr, bonding, etc)
Blackmail
Bloodplay
Body modification
Body swap
Breath play
Brothels/prostitution/prostitution role play
Butt plugs
Claims
Cock control
Cock worship
Collaring
Comeplay (play with the stuff, use it to mark the sub)
Crush fetish (one physically laying on/overpowering the other)
Cybersex
Cuddling
Delayed gratification
Dildos
Discipline
Dry humping (come in the pants even)
Double penetration
Dominance fight
Electrical shock
Enemas
Femdomme
Fetishes (and anything can be a fetish)
Figging
Finger-fucking
Fireplay
Fisting (ow, but doable)
Foot worship/boot worship
Forced celibacy (or forced orgasm)
Frottage
Gagging (ball gag, cock gag, underwear)
Genderswap


Hand-jobs
Heat play (hot packs, hot water, heating pad)
Human furniture
Japanese rope bondage
Marking (hickies, biting, long stripes from the cane)
Marking with jewelry, piercings, tattoos
Masturbation as performance art
Medical restraints
Mind control
Mock Attack
Mud/grease/dirt (and rolling around in)
Multiple partners
Non-Con
Oral sex
Pony play
Predatory role play
Public sex
Pulling the train
Puppy pile
Puppy play
Rimming
Ripping of clothing
Ritual Bathing
Roleplay
Sex toys
Shaving/grooming
Shower head
Shower sex
Sixty nine
Slavery
Spanking
Spell/Aphrodisiac/Alcohol made 'em do it
Thralling
Voyeurism

And I don't know how useful (or how Narcissistic) this might be, but that is about all I have to say about kink.
Tags: lit_gal, speaker

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[info]janedavitt

March 22 2008, 19:10:20 UTC 4 years ago

Really enjoyed this, Lit Gal; well expressed and the examples from your fics were great ways to illustrate your points.

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 19:13:32 UTC 4 years ago

I'm glad that it's clear enough because I had a heck of a time writing it. You do tons of kink writing, so what would you add to the list of kink rules?

[info]janedavitt

4 years ago

[info]lit_gal

4 years ago

[info]janedavitt

4 years ago

[info]sid

March 22 2008, 19:28:08 UTC 4 years ago

That was very interesting, and I think the thought that you put into it explains why your stories are so good. Because you don't just throw in some sex - it's multifaceted and fits the stories.

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 21:45:10 UTC 4 years ago

I really do try to avoid random sex. I want the sex like the dialogue to make that relationship clearer or move the characterization along.

[info]jans_intentions

March 22 2008, 19:30:26 UTC 4 years ago

Lit, I'm going to have to break this down into several comments. This is the first.

Regarding the biggie, in-character kink. Fuck! This is SO vital. Anyone can write some slave story of Brian and Justin or Blair and Jim and it be very kinky but NOT THEM.

Personally, I find this the hardest kind of story to write or beta. I think it might be easier to just go original with some kink stories than try to make them work with canon characterization.

You nailed it there when you said:

Sexuality is a reflection of a person. Whether a person is gay, straight, or bi, vanilla or kinky, dominant or submissive, that drive is a part of a larger personality. When the kink doesn't "match" the personality, the sex scenes feel forced and (no pun intended) masturbatory.

Exactly. It's just someone getting off on the idea of Brian being someone's slave, without thinking, well how the does that happen? Since it's extremely *unlikely* given his canon personality.

Actually, I'm thinking of [info]gaedhal's wonderful Medium Security, where she had Brian at a very low point through flash backs. She kept him in character, but her world building was such that it was a believable scenario.

figure out what makes your characters tick and then transfer that into their sexual practices. What do they want/desire/need? What do they fear/loathe? What motivates them? Money? Honor? Reputation? Make your sexuality match that basic characterization.

Yes, that's how you do it. The kink should never be allowed to overpower characterization. The trick is find a way to make it happen while doing your best to honor who that character is.

[info]jans_intentions

March 22 2008, 19:40:39 UTC 4 years ago

So kinkiness is not always sexual. Sometimes it fills an emotional need/hole that nothing else can quite touch.

I agree (and have used this myself) but oddly, there is a delightful kind of back wash to some scenes (if it's your kink). Just having it there can be kind of powerful in a way you don't see. Like the non-conish scene of Xander and Spike in BB's early chapters. I know that was kind of upsetting, but I also personally found it hot. (And I recognize some readers would not, but that's fine. We are all different.)

And as a writer, you can only write what turns you on. The further you go out into kinky writing, the more likely you will trip wire some personal squicks in your readers. You can't help that, I don't think. I think you just have to acknowledge it as a reality and allow yourself to have your kinks and respect the fact that your readers have theirs (or not).

[info]lit_gal

4 years ago

[info]lit_gal

4 years ago

[info]lit_gal

4 years ago

Deleted comment

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 21:55:21 UTC 4 years ago

Rule number one is, for me, the absolute line in the sand for erotic writing. Random sex nailed onto a plot just feels... dirty. I want sex that's integral, set that is right for the characters. For me, it's the difference between making love and fucking, and sex that doesn't fit the characterization is just fucking.

And you're absolutely right on research. I would say either read up on it or try it out on yourself. YOu never know when you might find something you like more than you would have expected.

[info]virtualpersonal

March 22 2008, 19:33:22 UTC 4 years ago


This was very interesting and informative. I always try to bring something of the story/plot into the sex scenes. For example if the story involves a struggle for dominance between the characters, then the same struggle will be reflected in the bedroom. Or if one of them has a fear of abandonment, some of that might be reflected through thoughts and responses during the sex. In that way, I try to make it so that it is not some “generic sex scene that could have happened between any characters” but is more personal to these two characters, in this particular story, with their particular history. I think your phrase about matching the emotional truth of a character is a perfect explanation of this process and will use it in the future. You’re absolutely right about being able to get any character to do what you want, but that to make it ring true, you have to really think things through and build the story so that the character has “real” motivation or propensity for something. If it doesn’t ring true, I hit the back button as well.

Great chart of kinks. Here I thought that I didn’t write a lot of kink, but heee... I’d be bolding quite a few of the items on the list. I’ve kept a copy for reference.

Thank you for this.

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 21:58:37 UTC 4 years ago

You're absolutely right... the plot needs to come into the sex scenes. People don't 'turn off' their personality at the bedroom door, and it just feels weird when there's generic sex in the middle of a well-characterized story. That's one reason why plagiarists so often get caught! They think that they can take a Spike and Angel sex scene and turn it into a McKay and Sheppard sex scene and no one will be able to tell the difference, but the characters aren't the same and the sex can't be the same... not unless it's really badly written sex.

I'm glad this rang so true for you, and feel free to copy that chart.

[info]velvetwhip

March 22 2008, 20:00:27 UTC 4 years ago

I found this to be very articulate, practical, and helpful. Great job! Well-constructed and valuable.


Gabrielle

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 21:59:25 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you. I really struggled with this, so I'm glad that it did come off coherent.

[info]velvetwhip

4 years ago

[info]syrenslure

March 22 2008, 20:31:37 UTC 4 years ago

Wonderful. You did a much better job putting this into words than I could have, but you always do. I also like the reference list. It gives me ideas :)

Thanks for sharing.

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 22:00:30 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you! It was really hard to put this into words because so much of this is just what I do without thinking about it. It's hard to analyze yourself, and I don't think I'll be doing meta again, but but I'm glad I could inspire some kink with the list.

[info]laurie_ky

March 22 2008, 20:33:38 UTC 4 years ago

I'm suspecting that when you write, you are expressing your points that you elucidated here in an intuitive way, so figuring out the 'why' it feels right was the headache part. But I thank you for going to the trouble. I'll certainly try and use it as a guide when I'm writing.
Laurie :: and passes you the Tylenol::

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 22:02:01 UTC 4 years ago

Figuring out the why was the huge headache. I spent a lot of time rereading my own work and the works of some of my favorite kinky writers... Legion, Jane Davitt... just to try and figure out a way to explain what works for me. I'm glad you've gotten use out of it.

[info]kseenaa

March 22 2008, 20:36:03 UTC 4 years ago

Damn well written. :-) As long time reader of kink of various kinds in.... very, VERY different settings, you made a point that I couldn't agree more on.

Less is more.


DAMN RIGHT! *cheer*

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 22:02:57 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you much! It's easy to forget that the lingering touch on a cheek is as riveting as pounding into someone's hole. Personally, I like the first more.

[info]kseenaa

4 years ago

[info]ladyvirgo1956

March 22 2008, 20:36:37 UTC 4 years ago

As a writer I don't write kink. I wouldn't even know where to start writing it. I look at what I'm writing and I find the only thing I can even write is Vanilla. I can read kink if I find it believable enough and the story explains as a whole on how it came to happen. I do agree that sex being just there without any motivation on the part of the characters is not good. whether it is bondage or not something has to drive the characters in that direction. Simply put figure out the direction you wamt the scene to go and don't change directiond haslf way through it.

[info]xocoatldreams

March 22 2008, 21:33:17 UTC 4 years ago

Actually, you'd be surprised how often you write kink and don't realize it. Taken in the right context, anything can be a kink. It's doesn't have to be outrageous. And in the strangeness of the world today with the ways everyone pushes boundaries, Vanilla has become its own kink.

[info]lit_gal

4 years ago

[info]furriboots

March 22 2008, 21:23:41 UTC 4 years ago

Purely from the reader's point of view I agree with your summation in its entirety.

The kink must match the emotional truth of the character. Of course. If a character is dominant then he cannot be used in a submissive role and obviously be accepting of it without a complete explanation of how he got there and why he is willing to submit. Those reasons have to tie into who we know he is. I think this is what makes fan fic so difficult. It would be so much easier to write an original character and give him the appropriate attributes to fit a story and whatever kink is used. To take a well-known character, and put him into a position where he is experiencing kink not seen in canon requires the writer to ensure that his reactions fit what we know about him.

Fantasy or reality—just know what you're writing. Nothing takes me out of a story quicker than an unrealistic reaction to what would probably be a very painful or unpleasant act. I have no trouble with supernatural beings recovering quickly from physical injury but I find myself analyzing the act if the characters are ordinary humans and everything is too easy or there is no pain or recovery time. I place my aversion to MPREG here too. (I truly believe that MPREG is a kink for some people). I can accept mpreg in supernatural settings but I have difficulty in dealing with it among ordinary male characters with no explanations.

Less is more. Now everyone (well everyone I talk to, lol) loves to read Pw/oP now and then. The thing is that the very best stories often have the sex and the kink scattered intermittently through the story or delay it until the climax (pun not intended). These are the well written, plot-driven stories that grab you mind and your heart. They are the ones that you remember and the one that you frequently read over and over. The Pw/oP are fun but generally forgotten in a short while or replaced by the next one of that genre. It is the plot and the heart that make the story memorable. The sex/kink in a well written story is the icing on the cake.

Be creative in finding new kinks that do it for you. Variety is important for the reader as well as the writer. I am sure a writer gets bored if they keep writing the same sex scene over and over. So too does the reader long for a change or a shock. The interesting thing is that the shock or excitement may be not from the unusual nature of the kink but of a particular kink being written for a certain character who you would not normally associate it with. The test of a great writer is to take a kink and make it believable for the reader. Anyone who can create sexual tension without any sex has the technique down pat.

(BTW I am reading on Jan's recommendation, Beautiful Broken. I am really enjoying it though I figure as I am only on chapter 7 I will be busy for quite a while. You are a very good writer indeed to get me to read Spander (I am not a Xander fan) as I started as a Spangel girl who morphed in a B/J bitch.)

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 22:35:59 UTC 4 years ago

I often think it's easier to write orginal fiction, but then I start writing original fiction and struggle with creating the complex internal reality that makes "bending" the character such a joy. I think that's why I like writing Spander. To me, Spangel is right there... scratch canon and Spangel pops out. They're vampires. They're highly sexed vampires. They're highly sexed vampires who raided weddings to rape and kill together. It's not hard to imagining them going from raping the humans to tackling each other in one easy step.

But Spander... that's harder to do. You have to bend the characters without breaking them (hopefully). I like Xangel for the same reason... it's HARD to write a version of Xander that would fall for Angel just because there is so much water under that hate bridge.

I'm glad that you're enjoying Beautiful Broken because I do think that's a case of bending the characters without invalidating any of the canon characterization. That's what I have fun doing. But I agree that when the bend goes too far and you have unexplained MPREG or unrealistic injuries vanishing, it's hard to stay in the story. Sometimes it's hard to see any connection between the character on the page and canon except the name.

[info]xocoatldreams

March 22 2008, 21:36:35 UTC 4 years ago

*huggles* very well written and very insightful.

If your sex scenes are always the dom grabbing some cuffs and chaining your sub up before plowing into him, that's going to get boring. Kink is the spicy, exotic food counterpart to vanilla sex. But if you have the same spicy, exotic food every day, the spice becomes vanillaish. So, explore. I think people interpret my work as spectacularly kinky (even though I have far more plot than porn in my work) because of the variety of kinks I play with. So, try out something new and different.

Oh, so very true. I always love to see something new and different, I try to write it too. Authors who write their sex scenes the exact same way every time seem to lose a lot of readers after a while.

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 22:38:49 UTC 4 years ago

I can't imagine writing the same sex scene over and over. I think that's why I fell in love with writing Thoughts Colored Ugly... just because the femdomme pairing meant I hadn't done any of it before. Weeeee. New toys.

[info]panur_links

March 22 2008, 22:26:31 UTC 4 years ago

thank you very much for all this information... i was very welle xplained and itneresting, and I could use all of it for teh futah~

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 22:36:49 UTC 4 years ago

I'm glad you found it useful.

[info]sparrow2000

March 22 2008, 23:05:00 UTC 4 years ago

You may never want to do this again, but I think we're all glad you took the time to do it once. Really interesting, well thought out and illuminating discussion. It really does explain just why some fics work so well, while others leave you with the nagging feeling that something is not right (even if you can't put your finger on what exactly is wrong.) Those are the ones that bug me more than the ones where there is an obvious train wreck happening.

Your comments on Second Verse had me nodding madly like a little nodding thing! You know how much I enjoy all your stories, but for me Second Verse will always be my favourite and I think that scene in the bar is one of the core reasons that's the case.

The concept of ensuring characterisation and sexuality are a match seems obvious, but it's only when it's said that you can see the big cartoon "Duh" sign. When I wrote Perceptions and Spike gave a fairly naive Xander some opium and then gave him a hand job while he was high, I felt very guilty at first. But then I realised that is exactly the kind of thing S3 Spike would have done. So thank you for helping me settle something in my head that I've always been a bit worried about!

Thank you for doing this, love. I really enjoyed it and it's made me think!

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 23:53:47 UTC 4 years ago

I'm glad that the discussion helped clarify things for you. I definitely can tell from your writing that you prefer a younger, more naive Xander, so I"m not at all surprised that Second Verse is a favorite. I do like that Xander... all heart and really not enough common sense or brains to go with it.

And the drug scene totally fit with who Spike was and who your Xander was. Canon Xander would have objected more, I think. But your Xander was already bending, already needing to earn Spike's approval and willing to do things outside his comfort zone to get them. So that read totally in character for me.

[info]lit_gal

4 years ago

[info]snow_white79

March 22 2008, 23:49:35 UTC 4 years ago

good & thoughtful read :)

[info]lit_gal

March 22 2008, 23:51:13 UTC 4 years ago

thank you.

[info]lothy

March 23 2008, 00:10:09 UTC 4 years ago


Thanks for this, it was interesting read. I hadn't heard of this community before either, I'll have to see what else is here.

I'm not qualified to give advice as a writer of kink, because while I have written it, it's all been PG-13 rated, and a long way away from your quality of writing. However, as a reader I know exactly what works for me, and I agree with just about everything you've said above.

As you may know (most people on LJ seem to by now!) I'm not a big fan of sex scenes. They tend to bore me, frankly, so I tend to skim-read unless there's a) good characterisation or plot involved, or b) something really interesting and unique about the way the sex is written (I'll always give Rogue from X-Men a try... what's not to love about a character who either can't touch skin, or hasn't been able to until the events of the story in question?). What I find sexy is everything else... the chemistry of the characters, the S&M, the dominance & submission, etc.

Not all kink is sexual.

Thank you thank you. I get so frustrated when I read fics where everything that's even slightly kinky has to involve sex. It can sometimes feel really twisted, when characters are getting off at things they really shouldn't be, and it's also plain boring.

B is not D is not S is not M.

There's a story I recced on [info]dsfics a while ago, where a woman dominates her partner, while having him put her in bondage. It's so unlike the normal fics I've read, and I love that - why should everyone who likes bondage be submissive and masochistic?

Again, thanks for writing this, especially as you seem to have found it hard work! It's appreciated.

[info]lit_gal

March 23 2008, 00:14:27 UTC 4 years ago

Honestly? I skim most of the sex scenes myself. I find many of my own sex scenes boring, which might be why I'm doing fewer of them. It's the buildup, the tension, the dancing around each other trying to figure out where the kinks fit... that's the interesting part. And when stories assume that B is D and you get the standard stereotype, I just can't get myself to read the story at all. Human beings are complex, contradictory, confusing creatures, and that's what I want from my fiction.

And I"m so glad that you got something useful out of this.

[info]shadownyc

March 23 2008, 02:54:45 UTC 4 years ago

For me, writing the few, rare sex scenes I've ventured into are the hardest, let alone kink. Many talk about "muses" but mine seem to shy away from sex scenes. Do you think under these circumstances it's virtually impossible to write a "quality" sex scene?

[info]lit_gal

March 23 2008, 02:59:47 UTC 4 years ago

I think if you're nervous you're more likely to write a good sex scene because you won't let cliches come falling out without thinking about it. If you understand what the character's motivation is and how they feel, I think you can write the sex. Maybe start with a nervous character and let your uncertainty come through that characters actions and POV. I think shyness and awkwardness are incredibly sexy myself.

[info]shadownyc

4 years ago

[info]shadownyc

4 years ago

[info]silentflux

March 23 2008, 04:34:54 UTC 4 years ago

Wow. I really, really enjoyed this. I'm so saving this to my writing resources to help me contemplate/edit/rework my own fics. Your insights are awesome and I agree with them wholeheartedly.

Sexuality and kink is such an interesting subject and this post made me actually think which is a miracle this late at night... and I love that you point out how important characterization is. This is probably one of the things I believe that I have problems with myself and it always helps to read other points of view on the subject of sexuality and character. Of course, with my comm, I've now read a lot of kink fic that is totally just for the purposes of kink, but there have also been a surprising amount that are about the character's kink as well.

Ok. So I think I rambled about nothing for a while. But the basic gist is - post=good. Thanks for the food for thought. I appreciate it lots :)

[info]lit_gal

March 26 2008, 02:00:32 UTC 4 years ago

I'm glad that this came off as 'thinky' as opposed to just rambling because it was hard for me to articulate some of this. For me, kink is all about characterization, although I admit that plenty of people just want to get to the down and dirty pretty fast. But like I said, this is all about me and my buttons.

[info]thismaz

March 23 2008, 09:33:26 UTC 4 years ago

You may have found it difficult to compose this piece, but maybe that's why it is so well thought through and argued.

The fact that you illustrated it with explanations for why your own characters behaved as they did in your various stories, is what made it such an enjoyable read, for me.

There was a fashion a while ago for 'DVD Commentaries' by authors. Many of them were too long and I got bored by having every single detail explained, but some of them were really interesting. I do love having the motivations behind the writing explained, especially when I love the story itself.

Of everything you said, I think it is your first rule that really, really matters. As someone who is not really very interested in kink (don't laugh, it's true) I still enjoy reading it, if it is presented as an aspect of the characterisation. Otherwise, both kink and sex, can be very boring to read.

If the character is continuous, if the act is a manifestation of the personality, then UST and foreplay can be so much hotter than penetration. As a culture we have a bit of an obsession with penetrative sex being the only 'real' form, so it is hardly surprising that many PWPs concentrate on that.

I am rambling here and not really commenting on your post, but these are the thoughts your post has sparked in me. One final thought - I think one of the hottest things to read, and the reason I enjoy your sex scenes so much, is because the physical action is merely the backdrop for the thoughts going through the characters' minds. That is what makes for a really hot scene - not the act, but the experience.

[info]lit_gal

March 26 2008, 02:47:22 UTC 4 years ago

I agree, the first rule is the most important one. Characterization, Characterization, Characterization! Kink and sex (in stories and in real life) seem rather flat without some sort of context or relationship or meaning, so I really do try to make sure my stories always have that connection between the plot and the kink. And you're not rambling at all... no more than I did. I'm just glad that my rare meta went over well.

[info]monjinator

March 24 2008, 00:40:02 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you for this! Most of it was stuff that, as a writer, you're kind of aware of on some level, but I thought you did an amazing job of setting it all out in very logical format. It's really helpful, and it's given me some things to think about. Especially the parts on what your character would be into. It's not something that a lot of people give much thought too, but looking back on all the stories you mentioned, it's what sets them apart. So thanks! And I hope to see loads more kinky stuff from you in the future ;)

[info]lit_gal

March 26 2008, 02:55:03 UTC 4 years ago

You're very welcome. I"m glad that you found it useful and I'm glad that it matches your experience with what makes good kink. I really did think long and hard before I posted. And I post tons of kinky stuff! ;)

[info]writeslikeyoda

March 24 2008, 19:25:19 UTC 4 years ago

Thankyou for this, there is much food for thought here, and much that is very helpful given that I'm starting to take my own writing into far kinkier situations than has presently been my 'cup of tea' as they say.

I'm finding this community to be very stimulating to the little gray cells and very challenging to my own considerations as writer.

Thankyou again for sharing this, as much as you may think it was a hard thing to write, your clarity and perspective make it a most educational post.

[info]lit_gal

March 26 2008, 02:53:14 UTC 4 years ago

You're very welcome. Getting into writing kink can be hard because it's a lot trickier psychologically than slot A and tab B. And this is a great comm. The mods had a great idea with a teaching comm, and I'm learning a lot from the posts.

[info]skellerbvvt

March 24 2008, 20:39:44 UTC 4 years ago

I highly approve of this. Especially on the anticipation part. You know those stories that are like 60 bazillion chapters and in the last they finally, finally kiss and you freak out more than the sex scene in the third chapter of that other story you're reading.

Of course there is something to be said about not killing your readers with UST.

I think most people get through writing meta by saying what not to do, which is not nearly as effective, but much more fun to write.

[info]lit_gal

March 26 2008, 02:51:40 UTC 4 years ago

Anticipation is a big one for me. I still get such a kick out of Witness winning for best kink when there was none! But it's the anticipation that makes the 'hotness' level go up. And I hadn't thought about it, but now that you say it, I guess most meta is negative. Hmmm.

[info]sasha_anu

March 25 2008, 00:54:15 UTC 4 years ago

This is a really good essay.

It hits on a lot of the things that either make me love or hate or story.

I especially like how you make the distinction of B is not D is not S is not M because that is so very true when you think about it.

Bravo.

[info]lit_gal

March 26 2008, 02:50:20 UTC 4 years ago

Thank you so much. I really did try to think of stories that hit or missed with me, and the B is not D thing is one that often bugs me. Characters with one kink to not HAVE to have others.

[info]starlightbj

March 25 2008, 08:10:36 UTC 4 years ago

I found your whole post very interesting and helpful. I've never read anyone's thoughts on writing kink so it was enlightening.

I agree with researching what you are writing and keeping it realistic within the 'world' you are setting the fic. Unrealistic scenarios can be so disappointing. Well researched kink/fetish etc is a pleasure to read.

Some of my favorite fics with kink are ones where the character(s) reach emotional, mental, psychological growth through their exploration of their chosen kink. So it's not 'just sex' but there's a whole background going on that's integral to the story too.

Thanx for sharing your thoughts and advice.

[info]lit_gal

March 26 2008, 02:49:17 UTC 4 years ago

I'm glad that the post was helpful for you. I do try to keep my kink realistic, even if my version of realistic gets a little out there when I have three vampires going at it. Thank you so much for letting me know that this actually made sense outside my own head.

[info]lezi

August 3 2009, 18:31:19 UTC 2 years ago

I liked the message you conveyed: porn does not make the plot. It's true, unless, you know, it's one of those smutty PWP's (which ARE good!).

...And staring at that (detailed) list of kinks made me quite surprised that there're things like that out there.
(Figging?... I wasn't as disgusted as I would've thought.)

Thanks for the words of wisdom! (:
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